Bible 1 Yr – Day 97 – Paul’s Testimony before Agrippa

Today we read Acts 26 when Paul, having been accused of Blasphemy and Sedition, makes his defense. It is important to understand when this is happening. This scene is after Paul has completed his missionary journeys. This is after Paul has appealed to Caesar. This is when he has begun the last leg of his journey. He is going to Rome where he will ultimately be martyred. Paul is now by far an expert in delivering the gospel to others. This is in effect a summation.

Let’s look at what Paul says. He recounts again that he began by persecuting the Christians and recounts his conversion. However, this time he gives us more detail about what Jesus said to him:

14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It hurts you to kick against the goads.’ 15 And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16* But rise and stand upon your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and bear witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from the people and from the Gentiles–to whom I send you 18* to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

In the previous two times we have read about Paul’s conversion I made the point that Jesus says, “Why are you persecuting ME”. That Jesus made no distinction between Himself and his followers. In this version of the conversion story Paul says that Jesus told him the purpose for which Jesus is appearing to him. Jesus is appointing Paul an Apostle to bear witness “to the THINGS IN WHICH you have SEEN ME and to THOSE IN WHICH I WILL APPEAR to you.” Notice, Jesus again does not separate himself from his followers OR their actions.

This is the intimate connection Christ has with his followers who make up the Church. This is why Paul will have written in his letters, that the eye cannot say to the hand “I have no need of you”. This is why Paul will have written in his letters that, “it is not I who live but Christ that lives in me.” This is why you cannot have two versions of any doctrine. Can one eye of the body say that something is black and the other eye says something is white? Can the foot say that it is the hand?

This union between Christ and the Believer is so close, so intimate, that it mirrors the union of the persons of the Holy Trinity. After conversion, the separation between the believer and the Lord is lost. But we do not feel this intimate connection in every minute of every day. However, we know that the Lord’s commitment to us is complete and unqualified. Therefore, we also know that it is us who resists or fails to trust the connection. By experience we know that on some occasions we stop resisting and allow the Lord in. Anyone who has ever got really bad news knows that in those moments of despair we throw off pretense and rely on the Lord (and thus we see why the Lord allows suffering). From this we can tell that salvation is a process by which over time we learn to completely rely on the Lord.

Next we see Christ telling Paul that his mission will be to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. Jesus says that this is being done, “that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are SANCTIFIED by faith in me.” Notice, the word used in sanctified, not saved. Personally, I don’t want to over emphasize the difference in the words. However, I do read “sanctified” as the beginning or first step in a process. That what was not holy is being made holy or sanctified. Whereas “saved” implies a finality, that there is nothing left to be done.

Let’s look at Paul says about what he has done since his conversion:

19 “Wherefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those at Damascus, then at Jerusalem and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God and perform deeds worthy of their repentance.

So here, in making his defense of his life and actions, Paul is telling the king (and us) that conversion those who are in the process of sanctification should repent; turn to God and do deeds (WORKS) worthy of our repentance. This is what Paul has been preaching his whole career throughout the world! Thus, we must read all of Paul’s letters in this light. Hence, this is sort of an Answer Key, something that shows whether we are interpreting the meaning of Paul’s other writings correctly.

In the coming weeks, as we move into Paul’s letters we will see that sometimes he preaches against the value of “works”. How can we reconcile these seemingly conflicting statements by Paul? Generally speaking, when Paul preaches against works he will be speaking to Jews about “works of the law”. This is a Jewish idiom, a phrase that specifically means “works that are required by the Mosaic Law”. We know these no longer bind us and Paul will be stressing to the Jews that it is no longer necessary to keep the rules of the old covenant to stay right with God. These legalistic requirements of the old covenant are fundamentally different than the “good works” done under the new covenant. In the New Covenant Jesus says, “DO unto others as you would have them do unto you” and “what you DO TO the least of my brethren you do to me”. Good works, done out of an abiding love for the Lord, are fundamental to the way we are supposed to behave as Christians. If we keep this general idea in mind, the difference between “works of the law” and “good works”, Paul’s letters will open up to us.

As an aside note that the word “should” modifies the sentence. It states, “… that they should repent and turn to God and perform deeds worthy of their repentance.”
The word “should” implies choice, i.e., free will.

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71 Responses to Bible 1 Yr – Day 97 – Paul’s Testimony before Agrippa

  1. Jon musso says:

    I appreciate what your saying I really do, but the creator, creation distinction is lost in your argument. Yes God love the church a church in Ephesians that he died for ephesians 5:25, but the casum between God and man is so wide you could never connect them this tightly as you have done to make the church equal to the savior, again with all do respect.

    Let move on to your works argument Paul through out his journey is arguing against Jewish law I agree, but he’s also fighting against legalism. Paul not against work and neither am I, but there not salvational works. We are saved completely and solely by faith in Jesus christ alone. What Paul arguing and james clairifies is dead faith. Faith that has no merit why do we work, because we recognize the grace that has been giving by God a unmerited favor, by God grace, it’s a gift from God claified in Ephesians 1-11. You can not connect God work and our works as justification for our faith. Justification by faith is forensic it does not change, jesus birth, life, death, and resurrection can not be added to. I believe in works, because genuine faith works, but you see faith and works as one of the same and Paul
    Arguing through out his mission against that futile thinking! he does that through out Ephesians, Galations, and romans.

    I appreciate your writing, but this is where we always go in different directions.

    God bless


  2. The distinction between creator and created always remains. However, the gulf is bridged because of the incarnation. While we remain on earth we are journeying to a state of perfect union with God.

    Which is the greater legalism to take the words of scripture and to accept exactly what they say or to repeatedly negate them with a formula of “faith alone”?

    • Jon musso says:

      To deny faith alone is to deny what scripture clearly states. Even in heaven we will be under authority of Christ. The church will glorify christ not christ glorifying the church.

      • Jon musso says:

        The incarnation allows God to experience our humanness, but God is transcending he’s not mere human he’s three in one. When you see the three you should see the one. When you see the one you should see the three Se transcending.

      • … to him be glory IN THE church AND in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen. Eph 3:21

      • Jon musso says:

        Heaven will be able the church giving glory to the king nothing else. That’s heaven the beauty of God being illustrated the heaven declaring the glory of god.

      • Jon musso says:

        Sorry! Heaven will be about God glory, not a church, all blessing to him the author and perfecter of our faith.

  3. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them YOU MAY PARTICIPATE IN THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.” 2 Peter 1:4

  4. Sorry, I have to go to a party for my niece who received her 1st Communion this evening. You get the last word.

    • Jon musso says:

      We participate as believers we dont take on his divine nature. Dave he’s complete in himself.

      • Luckily, I haven’t left yet. We don’t complete him, he completes us. Thomas Aquinas taught that God is existence itself. He is that being which is the cause of his own existence. That is why is name is “I am”. Just like he calls us into existence and he shares that part of his nature with us. We exist because he shares the nature of himself – existence with us. So will he share his divine nature with us. We will not become divine but we will be perfected. The ancient metaphor is the iron rod placed in the forge. The iron is us. The forge is God. When the iron is left in, it takes on the qualities of God, it glows hot with fire. The fire is inside it but the iron is not the fire and fire is not the iron. The iron partakes of the nature of the fire. So it will be with God’s divine nature.

      • The verse clearly says we participate in his divine nature. What does “participate as believers” mean anyway? Its just a phrase designed to neuter the words of Scripture.

        Wife is ready, now I am going.

      • Jon musso says:

        The church is not divine christ is, we participate as member of God community. to see the church equal to God is faulty. Dave please tell me you see God divine and you as member of a community, not equal to God. I really enjoy this debate but I pray this is not your theology.

      • Jon musso says:

        You connect to God through faith you are participate as a believer to God divine plan, but you are not equal and neither the chuch.

  5. 795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the “whole Christ” (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:

    Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God’s grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. . . . The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does “head and members” mean? Christ and the Church.230
    Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.231

    Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.232

    A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: “About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter.”233

    • Jon musso says:

      The scripture point a sovereign God hebrews says christ is the high priest. You believer christ is equal to the church. Doctrine of God does not allow this futile thinking he’s self contained, sovereign all powerful all compassing. The I am is about him he transcends he’s God and the chuch should humble them self to him your showing
      Pride and arrogance if you see them as two co branches. The only reason you can speak think talk, is jesus revealing himself, he’s complete, in himself.

      • Heaven is about God but we know his bride is the Church. What does the bible say about this:

        Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (‭Revelation‬ ‭19‬:‭7-8‬ NASB)

        Righteous acts = good deeds

        Every time we perform this exercise my verses corroborate each other. Whereas you repeatedly say the scripture doesn’t mean what it says.

        Doesn’t that make you uncomfortable?

      • Jon musso says:

        No because your hermeneutic off. God entering into the text and is heart of the gospel. Dave answer this question how are you saved? Answer that question maybe if we can come to agree their we can get their!

      • Jon musso says:

        I don’t see the gospel in your theology. Just answer this question?

      • My brother, who has ever denied that we are saved by our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The only question we have ever been arguing is whether it is “faith alone” or whether someone in addition is required of us and if the Lord founded a Church what church is it?

      • Jon musso says:

        With all due respect you didn’t answer my question. I will try again What makes you righteous in God eyes. Please answer that question I can answer that question please?

  6. Jon musso says:

    I will answer your question the church of Jesus christ.

    • What “makes” you righteous? Your relationship with Jesus. Historically the “church of Jesus Christ ” is the Catholic Church. Since that is the case it is the only church that can be bc Jesus could not have established a church that failed.

      • Jon musso says:

        What makes you righteous is God! You become righteous through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus christ. Through the blood of Jesus christ. You deserve hell and so do I, but because of Jesus death he’s my substitute, ‘
        the death I deserved he took my place. He imparts his righteousness on to a sinner like me. That my only hope, not a church, not a work, not a list of do’s and don’t its the blood of Jesus christ, which I connect to by faith in Christ, that’s also the true church those who believe genuinely in the saving power of Jesus are the one that christ will build his church on. The gospel is the connect power of the cross to believer he will build his church on those who through faith have committed to christ, to live for the glory of Christ Jesus.

        Amen good night

      • Jon musso says:

        True genuine believer have not failed!

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        We are the Body of Christ.

      • Jon musso says:

        What makes you righteous is the imputing righteousness of Jesus which is put on to believers account. Jesus died for his church those are the believer of the living savior that’s the church. Grace all grace.

  7. Jon, it occurred to me just now. Do you think we are saying you are wrong? We are not. We agree with you. You have a love for God and a tremendous reverence for his supreme nature. We agree with that. Who wouldn’t. All we are saying is that when you say that God IS THIS, that you are implicitly also saying that God IS NOT that. We cannot limit God in any way. We cannot say He is that if we are implying he is not that.

    When you say, “The scripture point a sovereign God hebrews says christ is the high priest. You believer christ is equal to the church. Doctrine of God does not allow this futile thinking he’s self contained, sovereign all powerful all compassing.” We are not saying that God is not that. All we are saying is YES! God is so big that he is sovereign and humble, a king and a servant, a ruler and a slave, the Lord and friend, a Father and a Son!

    Is God the creator? Of course. Is there an infinite gap between creator and created? Of course. But has that infinite gap also been spanned? Indeed it has with the incarnation. Now, because of the work of the Son, can we have a personal relationship with God? Of course we can. Indeed the curtain separating the holy of hollies has been torn in half and we have direct access to the Lord.

    The bible says that the “CHURCH is the FULLNESS of Him who is all in all”. What is “fullness”? Fullness is completeness. Fullness means NO MORE can be fit in. Thus WHEN THOSE WORDS WERE WRITTEN the Church was complete. It could not be added to. There could not then or ever be a church that got it “more right”. But we as Catholics do not say that limits God. Just as Israel was the complete work of God in the Old Testament but Cornelius was still a righteous believer, so too EVEN THOUGH the Church is the fullness of Jesus in the world so still can God operate outside the Church to give grace to all men, especially those that love him. This it is both true that the Church is the one and only church “the fullness” AND that God still gives grace and blesses all men.

    But if we love him we cannot limit him. We cannot say He IS THIS and NOT THAT. And that is what we are trying to get you to understand. If at the time those words were written “the Church was the fullness of Him who is all in all” then any Church that comes after cannot be the fullness. It by definition must be LESS.

    And this is exactly that conversation we have been having these many years. You keep saying “God is this”! And “all we need is this” (Christ’s death and atonement). Or “we are saved by faith alone”. And we keep saying that you cannot limit God. He is not this or that. He is this AND that.

    He is the supreme being of the universe. Its creator. Omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

    He is ALSO a infant baby, a lamb, a victim and a sacrifice. He made himself those things, not because he had to but because he loves us.

    He doesn’t need anything but he desires our love, which we give with our hearts and show through the proper worship he has requested and commanded.

    We are saved by grace. Everything is grace. The idea to question our place in the universe is grace. the inclination to look to the heavens and wonder about God is grace. The gift of faith is grace. The gift of conversion is grace. The gift of worship is grace. The gift of the inclination to do good works is grace. The gift of the free will to act and do the good works is grace. But we cannot limit God! If we say we have no part in it at all, if we say we did not have the free will to choose then we have limited him. We have said that he does not have the power, authority or ability to allow free will in his plan. I will not limit Him in any way.

    To say we are saved by “faith alone” or “grace alone” is to limit God. It is to say that he does not have the power to make make good works part of his plan. I will not limit Him in any way.

    It is the same with the Church, which the bible say is “his body, the fullness of him who is all in all”. Should I limit the plain words of the scripture? Should I say that God does not have the authority, the power or the ability to be intimately related to the Church. Should I say that God does not have the power, authority of ability to appear as bread and wine? If I say that then I deny the incarnation. If God cannot appear as bread and wine then why can he become an incarnate man? I will not limit Him in any way.

    Finally, look at the history of Christianity. It is a history of trying to limit God. At first some tried to say that Jesus was not God. The Catholic Church said we will not limit Him in any way. The next tried to say that Jesus was not man. The Catholic Church said we will not limit Him in any way. The next tried to say that the Holy Spirit was not God. The Catholic Church said we will not limit Him in any way. This went on for 1,500 years until Satan turned his attack on the idea of the intimate relationship between Christ and his Church. Luther said we don’t need a Church. The Catholic Church said we will not limit Him in any way. And what has happened since? Luther threw off the Pope. Calvin threw off free will. The next threw off sacraments. The next good works. The next threw off sin. Now they are throwing off marriage, family and even gender.

    The Church is the fullness of him who is all in all and each subsequent iteration is something LESS than was there before. WE BELIEVE what you believe AND we believe all the rest that all Christians until 1517 believed. We love the Lord believe in the FULLNESS of what He taught. We know this because we are in the same Church that was in existence when those words were written. We know this because we embrace history and read the sermons of the preachers who first taught Christianity and our doctrine is the same as when Christianity was first taught to the world. We know this because Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth.

    Sorry this is long but I so much want you to understand. We may quibble with some of the wording you use but we basically agree with you but we cannot limit God in any way. If the Jesus says, “this is my body” than that IS his body. Our job is to uncover the mystery of that statement. If Jesus says, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME” than that means Saul is persecuting HIM. We take that literally and seriously. Out job is to uncover the mystery of that statement. Are we crazy for taking the bible literally? Maybe. Fine, call me crazy. But I rather go to hell with Justyn Martyr, Ignatius, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Thomas Moore, Joan of Arc, Saint Louis, and the entire cloud of witnesses than to limit God in any way.

    God bless.

    • Jon musso says:

      I appreciate your post and I also appreciate Justin post because they are challenging. I agree with most of what you have written! we agree that God is sovereign, we agree in the virgin birth, the life, the death and the incarnation. We agree that God going to build his church on Peter the rock. We agree that the church is complete. We even agree in that our choices matter to God. So if you take these things into isolation no problem, unfortunately there an issue, how you the catholic postion, and me the Protestant postion see God and man. Which was calvin point all along. Let me explain you see man as effected by the fall, but not completely depraved that is the catholic postion, because you deny election. Hear the problem the bible does not, the bible says we are alienated from God and completely helpless we see this in romans 7! And than we see election through out Paul theology. catholic see justification and sanctification as one in the same and I will explain more clearly If you believe that salvation is not forensic that our works justify our salvation than your view of man is flawed, and your view of God sovereighnty is limiting. This is not limiting God ability, this is how God see man. These are just two examples. So when you say that we agree we agree on individual points, but I see christ as the center player, you resolved your self to see the church and God as the main players. I believe all of theology is about the glory of the savior you say yes, but than you reiterate your love for the Catholic Church, and how it never fails unfortunately with out getting to specific we have seen failure in both the catholic and Protestant churches.

      Hear the best way I can explain it if the pope was in front of me for two minutes and I had the opportunity to ask him a question, I would ask him do you teach that we are justified by faith alone through the life death and resurrection of Jesus christ, and through that justification we now because of the justifying works of Jesus christ not man that we live a life of fruitful works, and unless he conceed that we are saved forensicly by christ alone through faith alone. I would say your teaching a false religion. All of true theology must be centered on the cross, so my issue with catholic believers there theology is tied to things that are of second importance and when you make them of first importance you cloud all of theology.

      I don’t limit God, but, as Paul says I call it all rubbish to know the power of the saving works of Christ! Paul theology put christ as first importance he didn’t say christ and the church, he brought his whole theology to the heart of the christian message christ and him crucified. again you both are good men who love God, but your view of God and man are not in line with the teaching of the New Testament. Have a great night and I pray God will bless you in all you due.

  8. In your last post every time you said, “Catholics believe…” you stated Catholic belief and teaching incorrectly.

    No Church recognized Christ and the Cross more than the Catholic Church. Every Catholic Church has Crucifix on the alter. Most have life sized crucifix above the alter. Christ is the focus of all worship.

    Regardless, we could go round and round debating “second importance” and make little progress. Catholics and Protestants have been doing that now for 500 years. That is why I said that, “I would rather go to hell with Justyn Martyr, Ignatius, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Thomas Moore, Joan of Arc, Saint Louis, and the entire cloud of witnesses than to limit God in any way.”

    This debate is easily solvable to those willing to look and listen. The Father’s of the Church, the ones who learned from the Apostles, recorded Christians doctrine in their writings of the first 3 centuries. The father of the Reformation recorded their writings in 1517 and thereabouts.

    The Christian doctrines recorded by the of the Catholic Church in the first 3 centuries, have under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, produced on faith, one baptism and one Church for 2,000 years. The fathers of the Reformation have produced 30,000+ denominations, each teaching different things, with none that can agree on any the points that we have debated.

    Don’t tell me something like “The Catholic church has made mistakes”. I didn’t say the Church was perfect in action. However, it has taught the same doctrine for 2,000 years. I know what Paul taught because the people he taught it to wrote it down and explained it more detail. What the father’s right is not scripture but what they write is the common understanding of Christians who learned from the Apostles.

    • Jon musso says:

      We don’t agree at all. Study Paul I did, I wrote my final paper on him. He believed as every Protestant believed. I studied him in the original language. no church, catholic or Protestant is not flawed that why there so many denomination because the reformers rightly said stop with the universal church and put all your faith in Jesus Christ through faith alone. The original church was flawed we have the ultimate
      church the church of Jesus christ, by him we are healed his strips not the churches stripes should always be foundational. Paul told us what should be of first importance not the fathers, not the church, not you or mean, but Paul.

      Now as for heaven and hell you prove my point with that statement right there, going to heaven is about God saving me ripping me from a world of sin to becoming a follower of Jesus Christ. I take know credit for my salvation. I give all glory to christ the author and perfecter of my faith. I don’t need a church to save me I have a king.

      Why don’t we just thank god for what we agree on and ask him for his sovereignty and guidance? I love you dave, but your right we see aspects of the church and the scripture differently.

      I do appreciate you and as much as my sin has gotten the best of me at time I care for Justin as well we just hold to different hills to die on.

      God bless you both

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        Jon, you’re separating St. Paul from the Church, which is not possible. Your first error and the clear domino effect.

      • Jon musso says:

        No I don’t Paul does. In Ephesians you do not see any imperatives until Ephesians 6 that because it’s all god.

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        You also separate Christ from His Church, too. Also, not possible.

      • Jon musso says:

        God glory separates them! God is over the church guilty as charged.

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        How does a head live without its body?

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        And vice versa?

      • Jon musso says:

        They don’t live apart, but they have different roles the head christ is always primary, the body is secondary. Christ the head of the family the bride the wife/ church is in submission to the head. Jesus the head died for the church the body, but the head is always primary. One flesh different economies. A picture of this is marriage wives submit to your husbands, husband love your wife. There an order to God sovereign design.

  9. If in the entire bible there was only 1 imperative about the Church should we ignore it?

    Sometimes we can make inferences from the number of times something is said but those are still just inferences. For example, one book of the bible, (3 John, I think) doesn’t mention Jesus at all. Should we take it out. Peter is the only apostle mentioned in every book. He mentioned something like 5 times for every time another apostle is mentioned. Is that important?

    Even though it is mentioned only 1 time something might be very important. John only says “In the beginning was the word … and the word was God” but who deny the importance of that?

    What does the bible say of the Church? Things that if you look at them objectively are extraordinarily important. Jesus says he will build HIS CHURCH on the Rock of Peter – therefore any Church not on the rock of Peter is not His Church. He says “go tell it to the Church” – meaning Jesus gave authority to the Church to solve disputes. He said “the gates of hell will not prevail” against the Church – wow – Hell itself will fall to the Church. Paul says the Church is His body. Paul says the Chruch is the “pillar and bulwark of truth” – that means the Church holds up and defends truth – there was not protestant church when he wrote that. Finally, we see the Chruch in Heaven – the bride of Christ – she wears a pure white rob – we are told specifically that the robe is the “righteous deeds” of the Saints.

    In Ephesus the Church was stronger than in any other city except for Jerusalem. Jesus names it in Revelation 2 as the most faithful Church. Paul didn’t need to write to Ephesus about the the Church, that would be like writing to the NY Yankees about how to be a great baseball franchise.

    Finally, we hear from Jesus himself in Revelation 2, when the followers of Nicholas start their own Church Jesus says, he “hates” their works. If that one sentence was the only sentence in the bible about the Church that should be enough to convince everyone that to separate from the Church is not a good idea.

    • Jon musso says:

      Yes, but I don’t believe your the true church, the church is those genuine true bible believing believers, but we are beginning to go down that same road as last week let’s avoid that guys again I love you both. God bless.

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        “True Bible believers” are Catholic. The Church existed before the New Testament. Would you have ignored the Word if you had no written material to read back then, granting you were not illiterate?

      • Jon musso says:

        You can’t remove the New Testament or the church, but to act like the church was up and up is just not being objective. Im not denying your faith I would never do that. Justin Im just saying your implication of who the church is and my implications are different! God bless you

      • I happy to let it go but can’t leave that hanging out there.

        Jesus said he was going to build a church – that implies a physical thing.

        Still it could be just “true believers” but then says when you have disputes “go tell it to the church”. If I am in a dispute and I say “see you in court” there must be an actual physical place to go to get that dispute resolved. The same with “go tell it to the church”. We know this interpretation is correct because there are penalties for not listening to the church – Jesus says that if you don’t listen to the church your are as a “gentile and tax collector”. Those people were not allowed into the temple. They were not allowed to participate in Jewish worship. They were kicked out. To be kicked out there has to be an organization to be kicked out of.

        It the Church is the “pillar and bulwark” of truth there must be an organization. The “true believers” can’t defend the truth unless they can speak with one voice. Just look at what we have now. Christians are ridiculed by the media and secular world, mostly b/c of the beliefs of fringe groups – who no doubt consider themselves the truest of true believers.

        Finally, we know history that Jesus from heaven said he “hates the works” of the Nicolatians. We know that they were Christians who broke from the Church of ideological disputes. This dispute was specifically over what the Old Testament said. They wanted to follow certain parts and Peter and Church said that circumcision was not binding on converts. Thus, the Nicolaitans were the “bible believing” people of their day and Christ rejects this premise in favor of the decision of the Church. Remember also that the decision of the council of Jerusalem “seemed good to the Holy Spirit”. That is because Jesus gave the HS to the Church and the Holy Spirit and Jesus cannot disagree.

      • Jon musso says:

        God bless you, the church failed it’s why christ had to die. God bless you

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        What is my “implication of what the Church is”? Who gave you the authority to change what He has already founded?

      • Jon musso says:

        I did not change anything! Jesus died as a response to a failing church I didn’t change anything jesus is now sitting on the throne it is finished.

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        The Church Christ has founded has failed? Please, cite your Scripture on that one.

      • Jon musso says:

        The gospels he died for the church, he didn’t die for a righteous church or he would not have gone to the cross. Jesus saves the unrighteousness not the righteous, the church is a group of sinful people. Please tell me who did he die for Justin good people, if they were good he would not have to die. When he was in the garden and he said father take this cup from me the cup of sin was he dying for good people of course not he was dying for sinners. That is the gospel.

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        Hell has not overcome the Church founded on St. Peter by Christ. It’s still here. We are still here.

  10. We have consistently said that the Church is not perfect but is “being perfected”. You don’t need to have perfect people to have a Church journeying to perfection. Peter wasn’t perfect and he wrote Mark (who also was not perfect). Luke was not perfect yet God used him to right Luke and Acts. Paul is not perfect but wrote 1/2 the New Testament.

    Perfection comes through the Church into the world, that is why the Chruch is called the “pillar and bulwark of truth”. By teaching the same thing yesterday, today and tomorrow that Church assures that the truth of the Gospel is not lost.

    If God can use broken me to right infallible scripture surely God can prevent broken men from interpreting that scripture wrongly and to spread the gospel around the world.

    • Jon musso says:

      Every interpretation is effected by the fall so we are all interpreting aspects of doctrine wrong the question is what part. I think the gospel point to christ, as the only means to perfection you can’t find that in a building, but in the person of Jesus christ. Again we are just going round and round. This is my last post on this subject not because I don’t enjoy it, but because it cause division. God bless you both.

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        He works through His Church. How do we know He is with us? The Church is how, not 40,000 variations of the original, True Holy Bride.

      • Jon musso says:

        No you know through your individual relationship with Jesus christ! That what true salvation is individual relationship with the king.

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        That’s false. No one was born with inherent knowledge of Him.

      • Jon musso says:

        No, but had inherit knowledge of the elected!

      • Jon musso says:

        No, but God had inherit knowledge of the elect. Ephesians 1-11 romans 8:28- 29.

      • Jon musso says:

        God chose you, not the other way around. Foreknew you

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        You know more than Him?

      • Jon musso says:

        Has nothing to do with me at all it’s all him. I Was on my way to hell he saved me I take no credit, again GRACE

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        You’re arguing and winning against your own stance of what your own mind thinks we don’t already know. No one said He didn’t know us, no one said we chose Him, you did to feel the superior one. That’s pride. That’s sinful.

      • Jon musso says:

        Again we don’t agree you don’t see jesus as the central player I do.

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        That’s a lie to categorize the Faithful in such a way. False witness, indeed.

      • Jon musso says:

        God bless you Justin!

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        God bless you with eyes to see and ears to hear the Truth.

      • Jon musso says:

        God bless you Justin! I pray for you I really do!

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        I surly need it, Our Lord knows I do. We pray for the entire world to become closer to Him. Pray without ceasing, Jon. Don’t stop, open your heart, and let Him in for not only yourself, but the world, and those who do not know Him, yet.

      • Jon musso says:

        Amen have a good night

    • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

      If God can change St. Paul’s heart, He can change ours here and now.

      • Jon musso says:

        Yeah Paul was elected!

      • Justin (Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        You’re not? He chose you to follow Christ, not the perverted version of St. Paul. Protestants are not unified in anything Christian, now Catholics are or else they would not be Catholic. Reminder: St. Paul, a Catholic, practiced before the “faith alone” falsehood. He actually worked for Christ and died for Him. You will not end-around Jesus Christ.

      • Jon musso says:

        God bless you Justin

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