Bible 1 Yr – Day 200 – The most Protestant verse in the bible …

… is actually Catholic.

When we started this journey some 200 days ago, the first time I ever mentioned works came the response, “What about Ephesians 2:8?!” Which says,

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God — 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.

That’s pretty clear right? “Not because of works.” But by now we have had much discussion on the topic and we have seen the overwhelming evidence presented in the Bible of the correct understanding of Faith & Works. For indeed we are saved through faith by a free gift of grace which we can do no work to merit. But once saved our works do have merit, for through Christ we participate in the divine life and we will be rewarded for the works we do in his name. And this is in fact, exactly what the next sentence in Ephesians says,

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Thus, works are our purpose, this is in our very nature, we are created for good works. Why is it this way? The simple answer is because that is the way God wants it. God could have done it any way he wanted. He could have made it that after Baptism, or on our tenth birthday or when as adults we accept Jesus that we become perfect, completely saved and free from all sin. But He didn’t choose to do it that way. What he chose was for us to continue to work on our sanctification through our relationships with others. He chooses for us to live a life of good works, for us to become servants of others whereby we become more and more like his son.

This is why Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3 that we are God’s “Co-workers”:

5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

And notice how consistent the two passages are. In Corinthians, Paul says that he and Apollos were “assigned” by the Lord to those that were converted. In Ephesians, Paul says that works are, “prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” So it is not just our eternal souls that are predestined but the very works we will do in our lives. Why? Because that is how God chooses to affect the salvation of world. Why? Because God wants us to be in relationships with others, to share with others the love we have for Him. Why? Because God is himself a relationship. Jesus is the son in relationship to the Father and the Holy Spirit is the relationship of love between the Father and the Son. By effecting salvation through relationships of love God allows us to know him. He allows us, he helps us, he enables us to understand him.

Going back now, notice that this is exactly what Paul said in leading into “by grace you have been saved…”

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

God gave you the saving grace for salvation , because of the great love with which he loved us. After which we are “alive together with Christ”. It makes sense then that if we are “alive together” with him that we need to become more like him. How was Jesus when he was here? He was a servant. He referred to himself as such. We then must be servants of others, humbling ourselves to do good works for them.

Paul continues and again articulates how closely we are related to Jesus:

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who HAS MADE US BOTH ONE and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create IN HIMSELF ONE NEW MAN in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God IN ONE BODY through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him WE BOTH HAVE ACCESS IN ONE SPIRIT to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints AND MEMBERS OF THE HOSUEHOLD of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom THE WHOLE STRUCTRURE, BEING JOINED TOGEHTER, grows into A HOLY TEMPLE in the Lord. 22 In him you also ARE BEING BUILT TOGETHER INTO A DEWELLING PLACE for God by the Spirit.

These verses speak of a profound closeness of the body of Christ. In my opinion, the verses speak both about the one body of Jesus being the infinitely sufficient sacrifice that redeems all of creation. However, it also speaks of the profound closeness all those who are saved will have with the Lord. It speaks of one household and being joined together in one temple. We know that Jesus told us that the temple in Jerusalem would be torn down and we know that in three days it would be rebuilt in his body. Notice, also that we are being fashioned into a Temple, not a synagogue. The temple was a place of Sacrifice and the Word. Whereas there was no sacrifice in the Synagogues, only the Word.

From the reading today, we see this is something that from God’s perspective this has already happened in heaven:

6 and RAISED us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

These passages thus in heaven there will be no physical distinction between the members of the body. We will be like the cells of our own bodies, each one individual and unique yet entirely part of the hole. Paul teaches this when he speaks of it being impossible for the head to say to the foot “I have no need of thee.” Remember, when he spoke of this unity of the body he immediately related it back to the Church:

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

All this serves to clarify what we read from Paul yesterday when he said that, “the Church is the body of Christ, the fullness of him who is all in all.” Paul’s understanding of the body is not merely a spiritual body. Rather, it is a profound change to the very nature of our existence. It is so profoundly different from how we are now that Paul can only get at it by circumlocution. It is one of the greatest mysteries of Christianity.

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62 Responses to Bible 1 Yr – Day 200 – The most Protestant verse in the bible …

  1. Jon musso says:

    The passage is saying by Christ you have been saved you can’t read Ephesians 1 and 2 and get any other interpretation that Christ saves out of anything but his sovereign will! Those he elected from eternity past would of course live out, the call, but not as saving faith, but out of thankfulness and humility of the saving power of Christ! Works are separate from faith it is independent of works as long as that is established I have no problem with this post!

  2. Your comment represents the common problem you and I have when discussing scripture. Of course God saves by his sovereign will. I said exactly that. But when you say, “you can’t read Ephesians 1 and 2 and get any other interpretation” that is just not an helpful statement.

    Do you really think that you can read 2 chapters of the inspired word of God and only glean one teaching form it? Who’s limiting God now.

    There are many many things that can be gleaned from these chapters. There is the fundamental truth you describe but there is so much more. I and all Catholics acknowledge the truth the Ephesians teaches that we are saved by God’s grace out of his love for us. But surely there is more. As faithful Christians, we can and should mine the scriptures for ALL they teach us.

    • Jon musso says:

      Yes but Dave scripture has the same pattern through out let start with just genesis 1-3 Adam and Eve are in a garden everything is good they are to fulfill the earth, genesis 3 happen sin enters into the world and throughout scripture man kind tries to redeem it we see this with Noah, , Abraham, and all of Israel trying to redeem it until finally Jesus comes as the last Adam and redeems man kind and we are saved by God grace this is the pattern of all scripture, and should be of first importance! I’m not limiting god it’s seeing God in all of his glory, and recognizing the pattern in how God works. The New Testament is nothing new it may look new, but it’s the Apple seeds in genesis that become a plant in the Old Testament, and in the New Testamen you have the apple plum, but not until you get to consummation do you get the apple it’s an organic process ending in the new heaven new earth. This is the pattern of eschatolgy, the new Israel as Jesus or corporate Adam. Ephesians is just part of the same pattern it’s not limiting this scripture in isolation, but the whole New Testament finds fullfillment in the resurrection It’s central not just to Paul, but to the New Testament it’s one string through out!

      God bless

      Jon

  3. Yes but there are many more than one pattern in the bible and if you only focus on one you by definition limit the others. How do you know the others are equally as important or more so. For example here is the pattern of BREAD in the bible:

    i. Work for Bread – Genesis 3 – punishment for the 1st sin is that Adam and Even will have to work to bring for bread out of the ground for human sustenance.

    ii. Melchizedek – Genesis 14:17 – who is the Jeru – Salem (or King of Salem) offers bread and wine to God in celebration of Abraham’s victory at the city that will one day bear his name Jerusalem.

    iii. Unleavened bread of the Passover – Exodus 12 – bread and wine offered at passing over of death showing the defeat of death and sin

    iv. Eat for the 1st Covenant – Exodus 24:9 – bread and wine eaten w/ God in heaven on Sinai at the institution of the 1st covenant.

    v. the Bread of the Presence – Exodus 37 (lech HEM a penin) – bread and wine symbolizing God’s keeping of the covenant kept perpetually i/f/o the Ark of the Covenant on a table made of the same material as the ark.

    vi. Manna in the desert – Numbers 11 – bread from heaven during the exodus

    vii. Bethlehem and the manger – Luke 2 – the child who will call himself the bread of life is laid in a manger where the creatures come to eat in a city which name translates to “city of bread”

    viii. Wine at the wedding feast of Cana – John 2 – water turned into wine at the wedding feast – heaven is later referred to as “the wedding feast of the lamb”

    ix. The Lord’s Prayer – “Give us this day our daily bread” – Matthew 6 – daily bread literally translates to “super substantial bread” this is the first time in history this word is ever used.

    x. Multiplication of the loaves – John 6 – recalls the manna in the desert

    xi. Bread of Life Discourse – John 6 – Happens on PASSOVER and has clear passover overtones and lines that link it to the last supper. Jesus says “I am the bread of life”

    xii. Last Supper – Matthew 26:26 – again at passover. Jesus says “take” and “eat” and do this in remembrance of me.

    xiii. Garden of Gethsemene – Suffering is the cup – Matthew 26 – Jesus describes the suffering he will endure as “a cup”. we know that there are 4 cups in the passover meal. Jesus only drinks 3 at the last supper. he says he will not drink again until he is heaven.

    xiv. Death on the Cross the new Passover – John 19 – Jesus is the lamb sacrificed at the new passover. Hyssop branch used to spread the blood of the lamb on the door at exodus in egypt is used to give Jesus wine on the cross. Jesus sips the wine on the cross, the 4th cup, and says, “it is finished” and gives up his life.

    xv. Road to Emmaus – Luke 24 – the resurrected Jesus is not known until “he is recognized in the breaking of the bread”

    And I skipped a few.

    There are many patterns. If you focus on one, you exclude the others. Here the New Testament fulfills or completes the Old Testament prefigurement.

    • Jon musso says:

      I see those still under one grace covenant it’s not there not important, but there not separate patterns!

  4. So the fact that they all have to do with Bread and Wine has no special significance. The fact just before he began the passion Jesus had a last supper of Bread and Wine and said “do this in memory of me” is of no special significance? That fact that He drank wine from the cross and said “if is finished”. The fact that Paul said that because we eat of one bread we are one body, no special significance”?

    God went through a lot a trouble for very little significance.

    • Jon musso says:

      The significant is that Jesus was on his way to the cross to redeem sin, it’s the same pattern Jesus is the final Adam the bread not significantly the savior who is to redeem man kind is!

      • Justin Ihnat (St. Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        The Roman Catholic Church: Walking and chewing gum for nearly 2,000 years.

      • Jon musso says:

        That good Justin they can chew gum and walk very impressive

      • Jon musso says:

        I definitely want to become catholic now they can chew gum and walk

      • Justin Ihnat (St. Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        Meaning She can do it ALL; SHE’S THE BODY CHRIST!

      • Jon musso says:

        What does scripture recapitulates through out the whole Old Testament inaugrating with Christ first advent and finishing fullfillment in the consummation of all things have to do with the Catholic Church! This is biblical theology and how it works!

      • Justin Ihnat (St. Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
        – Matthew 28:16-20

      • Jon musso says:

        Yes justin the verse is saying evangelize the gospel to the world! The apostles authority comes from the spirit the spirit that was resurrected from the dead! The apostles are foundational in there apostolic role what was the role? to declare Christ as the ultimate authority! You make it sound like there authority is separate from Christ! All the apostles recognized there authority comes from there connection to the resurrection, of the savior they all had a apostolic journey! What was that journey to declare one people of God not Jew or gentile one people, one gospel the order salutes, one church, that church is Christ church the one he died for, he doesn’t give up resurrectional authority to the apostles that not the point of that verse, that verse is to share sermon on the mount to all man kind. I don’t worship the apostle or any church I worship the man who walk out of the empty tomb!

      • Justin Ihnat (St. Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        Also, the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Christ. Are you a legitimately ordained Apostle to recreate the Blessed Sacrament? We know the answer, Jon. You don’t have that power. Br. David, nor I have that power. He is with us; how do we know this? The Blessed Sacrament, the Truth.

      • Justin Ihnat (St. Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        You also worship a man!?!?!?!?!?! What have you done to separate Christ’s divinity?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!

      • Justin Ihnat (St. Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        Oh, please, Jon, I “reject the Gospel”? Roman Catholics fully embrace the Gospel, which is why we have the Sacraments, and aim to do everything Christ has told us to do. To even attempt to falsely attack me as being closed to Christ shows me you have nothing left. Your “bombs” are straw men and where you get off trying to make Catholics out to be separated from Christ in any respect is purely mind-blowing. As for “obnoxious remarks”, I used your own remarks on you that you’ve thrown at us recently and in the past. Christ was born, suffered, died, and resurrected. How in the world you believe the Church does not teach this is beyond me.

    • Justin Ihnat (St. Ignatius of Loyola) says:

      Are you so blind to see that without Christ THERE IS NO CHURCH?

      • Jon musso says:

        You deny the gospel, we are saved by the gospel not by any apostle or a church! I really pray you find the saving power of Jesus, I will certainly be praying for you this is apostasy of the Christian message! I like you Justin, I believe your good man who loves God, but this just isn’t the gospel if I didn’t like you I would just tell you, continue down this road! We are saved by one things the saving power of the resurrection, the answer are in a personal relationship a saving relationship with Christ you can’t get that from the Eucharist, you can’t get that from the Catholic Church, you can’t get that from a pope or a priest, you only get that from a commitment to the saving works of Christ, he is the only way to glory. Again I’m not knocking you I’m not trying to disrespect you I truly pray you comit to Christ! Your going to say you concede that Christ is the answer, but if Christ is the answer you wouldn’t see these sacraments as authoritative to your salvation! We saved by Christ and his resurrection! Please don’t obnoxious remarks back I’m done throwing bomb at your faith, all I want from you please Is that you become open to the gospel! I’m open to line of thinking, but 1 Corinthians 2:2 confirms what I believe, again I’m not attacking you anymore and I have said some inappropriate things I’m wrong for that no more name calling!

        God bless

      • Justin Ihnat (St. Ignatius of Loyola) says:

        You cannot get anymore personal than literally consuming Christ. We we’re saved at baptism. You don’t get to attack me, to back peddle, and then say you’ve said inappropriate things w out a reaction from me. Save the attack,Jon. Save yourself from needlessly having to apologize every single time we encounter one another.

  5. Chris Daley says:

    27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

    Since all the believers considered to be the body of Christ and Christ is the head of that body,

    “22 and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.”

    why is one of the pope’s titles called the “office of Supreme Head”?

    Institution of a supreme head by Christ
    “The proof that Christ constituted St. Peter head of His Church is found in the two famous Petrine texts, Matthew 16:17-19, and John 21:15-17”

    This is from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

    • Simply stated that is not one of the official titles of the Pope. That is just a title heading on a webpage. The official titles of the Pope are:

      Bishop of Rome,
      Vicar of Jesus Christ,
      Successor of the Prince of the Apostles,
      Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church,
      Primate of Italy,
      Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province,
      Sovereign of the Vatican City State, and Servant of the servants of God.

      • Jon musso says:

        Again im done attacking you, Justin, I pray for you this theology can’t save you it’s a heresy the way you are frame it is a Heresy, now I don’t know if you excepted Christ and are struggling with faith, I don’t know if you believe in Christ, but I know baptism can not save you, neither can the Eucharist, or the Catholic Church, the bible clear you are saved by comitting to a life with Christ you can not do that with out a heart change and you can not get there through catholic tradition, I pray your heart changes! Again I’m done with the attacks the bible clear we are saved by the life, death, resurrection of Christ that is our justification, and nothing else. You have been given the gospel I will trust in God sovereignty my heart and hands are clean!

        God bless

      • Chris Daley says:

        “Finally, the Council of Florence defined: [17] That the Roman Pontiff is the true Vicar of Christ, and the Head of the whole Church, and the Father and Teacher of all Christians; and that to him in blessed Peter was delivered by our Lord Jesus Christ the full power of pasturing, ruling, and governing the whole Church. (John 21:15-17). ”

        From http://catholicplanet.org/councils/20-Pastor-Aeternus.htm

        How can the church have 2 heads and 2 fathers?

      • Jon musso says:

        They just can Daley there catholic! Lol

  6. St Paul called himself the father of the Corinthians b/c he was the one who taught them the Gospel so I don’t see who calling the Pope the “father and teacher of all Christians” is a problem in any way.

    Further calling the Pope the “head of the whole Church” presupposes temporarily. The Pope is certainly the head of the earthly aspect of the Church. Christ is of course the head of the body of Christ.

    Jon is of course correct. Being Catholic the council of Florence which you site was fulfilling Jesus’ instructions in Matthew 18, just as the Apostles did in Acts 15. Thus, the decisions and teachings of the Council of Florence “seemed good to the Holy Spirit” just as the decision of the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.

    • Jon musso says:

      They see the church and Christ at the same level that’s the bottom line they believe Christ gave up his divinity to the church! Crazy, but Jesus is all man all divine and does not need any help!

      • Jon musso says:

        The bottom line you say Jesus is the head and at the same time say the pope is the earthly head. There can only be one head and Paul saying he the father of the Corinthians all he saying he got the message from God, he really saying God the head and I’m submitting to him!

    • Chris Daley says:

      “The Pope is certainly the head of the earthly aspect of the Church.”

      Why do you need an earthly head, when you say that in every mass across the globe, the “real presence of Christ” is there?

      • Jon musso says:

        Because they believe you can’t reach God unless the church is involved which is just false teaching!

      • Christ is really present in the Eucharist. However, Christ in the Eucharist does not speak and articulate doctrine. The reason you need an earthly head is for EXACTLY the same reason Jesus left Peter as the earthly head of the Church when he ascended into heaven. In Acts 15, all the Apostles argue about the issue of circumcision of the gentiles. The arguments progress, then Peter speaks. He says, “WE believe….” and speaks for the Church. Acts 15 says that after that the Apostles fell silent. We follow this example to this day.

  7. As to Jon’s other points we do not believe the Jesus gave up his divinity to the Chruch. We believe he gave his AUTHORITY to the Church. He also made the Church a divine institution. At Pentecost, he BREATHED on the Apostles and conveyed to them the Holy Spirit. There are only 3 other instances of God “breathing” in Scripture. When he created the world. God breathed a soul into Adam. And the bible says the the Scripture is God breathed. Am I to take it then that God’s breath onto the Apostles is of no importance? Rather, I take it to mean that is is a SIMILAR act as the the others. God’s breath CREATES the world and gives it life. God’s breath give live and a soul to Adam. We know that the scriptures are the living word of God. What then is the effect on the Apostles at Pentecost when the Church is founded? The Church is a living organism. Like Adam, It is imbued with a soul but its soul is the Holy Spirit. That is why the Church can be said to be a body and is also referred to as the bride of Christ. You can believe if you want that these actions had no special meaning but it seems obvious to me that Jesus was acting with a specific purpose to make his Church something different then we had ever scene before.

    Further, I have specifically said in my posts and comments that you might be able to reach God without the Church. I have stated that I think that most protestants are probably saved. However, Christ founded a Church and that Church is the normative means of salvation. Further, “extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” is also true. There is no salvation outside of the Church. That does not mean that you have to be a card carrying Catholic to be saved. But it does mean that it is the nature of your relationship to the Church that will ultimately decide your salvation. For example, you believe the bible. The Chruch wrote and canonized the bible. Your salvation rests on your living up to the bible as best you can. Therefore, your salvation is ultimately founded upon the fact that you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church that the books you read are the inspired books of the bible.

    You can deny the Church if you want. Over the last few days in the posts and this comment thread I have shown you Jesus founded a church. In Matthew 18 He told us that it has authority to decide disputes. Scripture says that the Church is the fullness of Christ in the World. It is his body. It is a divine institution animated by the Holy Spirit. It is Jesus’ bride. There really isn’t any other way scripture could make it more clear. It baffles me how people refuse to see it. Then again, people can convince themselves of anything. For example some people insist OJ didn’t do, but deep down we all know the truth. The evidence if overwhelming. We’ll see more of it this week. We don’t have to fight about it. You decide for yourself.

    • Jon musso says:

      Don’t worry I deny the Catholic Church because Christ does! We just see Christ different and we have different presuppostion!

  8. Chris Daley says:

    “He says, “WE believe….” and speaks for the Church. Acts 15 says that after that the Apostles fell silent.”
    expect for James, who gives us the what the instructions of what they decided.

    So when Christ says, “where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them”, he’s just there for what? if he isn’t there to teach us or to guide us in anyway, why is he present?

  9. Great point Chris. Peter speaks for the whole Chruch but James says “I think…” and changes the point of the discussion. It goes from deciding what the doctrine is to HOW the doctrine will be implemented.

    No one is saying that Jesus doesn’t guide people individually. Of course he does. This is an argument you repeatedly make and i repeatedly tell you this logic if faulty. One truth does not ipso facto exclude another. When people are gathered together (or alone for that matter) and pray and ask for guidance, the scripture specifically say they will receive wisdom. However, that is entirely different is deciding matters of doctrine for the universal truth. We know from the evidence given to us the the protestants that that is not the case. Protestants can’t really agree on anything. Every theological issue creates a new denomination. Conversely, we see the Catholic Church, which follows the rules set out in Matthew 18 and the example of Acts 15 and can read the Church Fathers and see that the Church teaches now the same thing that was believed by the first converts. Doctrine might develop, it might be articulated more clearly, but that is exactly why Jesus gave us the rules of Matthew 18 to follow.

    • Jon musso says:

      You have to deny the doctrine of salvation to come to your conclusions! This is not a church issue its an authority issue!

      • Jon musso says:

        Your theology sounds like Oprah theology multiple truth don’t exist! there one truth one God the God of the scriptures!

  10. Your absolutely right it is an authority issue. Even you don’t deny that Jesus gave authority to the Apostles. By giving authority to the Apostles, did the apostles somehow deny the doctrine of salvation? Of course not. It follows, that when this authority is extended into the next generation, that also does not deny the doctrine of salvation.

    You just can’t accept that the Church is more than buildings, and statues and incense and guys in funny hats. It’s also more that some loose definition of the universe of believers. The Church is Christ’s extension of himself into this world until he returns. That is not an denial of the doctrine of salvation. That is a great affirmation of the doctrine of salvation because if the Church is Christ extended into the world and we are saved thought the Church then we are DIRECTLY saved by Christ. Not ONLY by what he did in time 2,000 years ago but directly, right now, by being within his very body.

    I know you love Jesus and I’m sure you feel close to him. You always says that we are not in relationship with him. But you are still separated from him by space and time. Do you not see the irony when you say that to us. We are not separated from him by space of time. He is here, NOW. Physically. Not in the generic “God is all around us way” but in the way your wife is there when she is sitting next to you.

  11. Chris Daley says:

    “He is here, NOW. Physically.” then why the need for another head?

  12. Jesus Christ is not a office administrator.

  13. Chris Daley says:

    But He is the HEAD, so there is no need for another head,

  14. Chris Daley says:

    “Another way to understand this is to realize that Jesus chooses not to be continually physically incarnate in the world. You can’t walk up to him and meet him and talk to him.”

    Todays Blog Post
    ” We are not separated from him by space of time. He is here, NOW. Physically”
    you just commented this

    So, which is it?

    • Both. Physically incarnate means in the form of his human person.

      • Chris Daley says:

        How can it be both?

        you said in todays’ blog post ” Jesus chooses not to be continually physically incarnate in the world”

        then “We are not separated from him by space of time. He is here, NOW. Physically”

        If he’s physically here, what is His purpose for doing so?

  15. Yes, Jon there is one truth. And we believe the truth. We know this because we believe what the first Christians believed.

    Irenaeus

    “In the Church God has placed apostles, prophets, teachers, and every other working of the Spirit, of whom none of those are sharers who do not conform to the Church, but who defraud themselves of life by an evil mind and even worse way of acting. Where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church AND ALL GRACE” (Against Heresies 3:24:1 [A.D. 189]).

    Origen

    “If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death” (Homilies on Joshua 3:5 [A.D. 250]).

    It is a hard thing to understand. How can an institution, an organization be anything more than a human sum of its parts? But it is. And this is how we will be in heaven. Perfectly united to Jesus as one Church. There will be no seperation between him and us, yet we will remain individuals. We will not become God but 1 Peter says we will take on aspects of the divine nature. God has simply done in part now what he will ultimately do completely.

    • Jon musso says:

      Again we just have different authorities

    • Jon musso says:

      Even in heaven we will be submitting to God we will have knew bodies, but will still be working and glorifying God this is what I’m saying this just is not good theology we are not God we are under God still in heaven.

      • 2 Peter 1:4, “For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that BY THEM YOU MAY BECOME PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.”

        Again, I specifically said that we do not become God (or a god). But we become partakers of the divine nature.

  16. How can Jesus be God and Man? Both is easy for God.

    As for the purpose, go to a Catholic Church and sit in front of the tabernacle. If the Church has a Eucharistic adoration chapel even better. When I go, I sit for 1 hour, like the Apostles in the garden of Gethsemane.

    • Jon musso says:

      Matthew 15:6 is the problem with catholic teaching In a nut shell!

      • St. Paul says to honor the traditions he and the other Apostles passed onto us. I’ve asked you this before. Have you no traditions in your Church? Really? Do you celebrate Christmas? On what day? B/c we do not know the exact day Jesus was born. We celebrate on the traditional day. Since you cannot keep “traditions of men” you’ll need to move Jesus’ birthday to a random day each year.

        Traditions of men that negate the scriptures are wrong. Apostolic traditions that explain and honor the scriptures are to be kept.

      • Jon musso says:

        You celebrate Christmas, because represent the virgin birth, we celebrate Easter to celebrate his death and resurrection, we celebrate thanksgiving to celebrate how thankful we are for what God has done for us. These are all the same thing! Matthew 15:6 is talking tradition of men, like worship angels, or seeing Eucharist outside the spiritual dimension that it is. All Protestant tradition follow the pattern I have been talking about from the beginning the birth, death, resurrection of the savior. The birth, death resurrection are paramout in the New Testament!

        Sorry this explanation is a little silly!

  17. Chris Daley says:

    I’m not asking how Jesus can be both God and man, I’m asking,

    If Christ is physically present, like when you said “We are not separated from him by space of time. He is here, NOW. Physically. Not in the generic “God is all around us way” but in the way your wife is there when she is sitting next to you.”

    Why then do we need another head on earth, when the Head is already here on earth?

    • Chris Daley says:

      Why do we need another head (pope) on earth, when the Head (Christ) is already here on earth?

      • Jon musso says:

        Because there church is useless unless you have an earthly father the bible become final authority and the bible is useless for catholic unless they can control you with there church! They don’t see the bible as final authority they see the bible submitting to the church!

  18. I didn’t see these additional questions until now. I’m leaving work, heading home and maybe cracking open a beer. Fortunately, I’ve already answered the question. The pope is here for the earthly administration of the Church. Jesus is here for our Theosis. As I cited to Jon above:

    2 Peter 1:4, “For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.”

    You’ll never understand it until you experience it. Go sit in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

    Oh and Jon – the Bible doesn’t submit to the Church but the Church has authority to interpret the Bible. We of course see this in the bible, in Acts 15. When the Church, meeting in council at Jerusalem, interprets the Old Testament to show that gentile converts do not need to be circumcised.

    Every answer I have given on this long thread is Biblical and supported by multiple citiations to scripture.

    Take care.

    • Jon musso says:

      No it not Dave it’s supported by a belief that the church is infallible which is bordering on insanity! Jesus has given us the spirit we don’t need church authority to interpret the word of God for us, I say respectfully I’m really thinking these comments your saying are borderline dangerous!

      God bless

      • Jon musso says:

        I will go this far your right or your in a dangerous theology! I’m 1000 percent sure salvation is entirely by faith alone through Christ alone, through saving power of Christ,
        if the Eucharist, or the pope were to be worshipped like a god there was no biblical evidence of that but I’m confident to say that! I would also say to be a true catholic you can’t fully except Christ as savior! You can be a counterfeit catholic that take part of catholic teaching, but a true catholic is not a Christian I can’t see how!

        God bless

    • Jon musso says:

      Apostle era over and the New Testament complete no need for today apostles which Is what the Catholic Church sees in the pope the same power this is fulfilled in fullfillment of the New Testament!

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